Warrior Cats of the Forest
of the Forest
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Plot Planning
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Hello everyone! If you haven’t already, please read over the Planned Events section at the top of the History Page.
The most contentious issue in the planned plot is whether or not to have a substantial portion of NightClan’s population neutered and, if we decide to go with that plot, how they should respond. Henry and I have been going back and forth on this on the last plot blog entry, so if you haven’t yet it’s a good idea to read over the last few pages of it so you know where the current discussion stands and can offer your thoughts on what would be the most interesting and realistic direction for the plot to head.
As well, how do you feel about the rest of the plot?
Over the past few days I’ve noticed that there hasn’t been much tension in SunClan surrounding Jaguargaze and Icestar and while I suspect that’s more a result of how busy this time of year is, I’d like to hear your thoughts on the SunClan schism. Will your characters actually be split between the two, or would you feel like you’re forcing conflict where there is none?
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107 Comments
I'm still going to stick by the idea that it wouldn't work as a realistic scenario and it's a forced plot with no real end goal and the fact that many things could go wrong with it. As for the Jaguargaze/Icestar situation I haven't seen any tension since I rejoined.
I think the NightClan neutered or spayed thing would be very exciting and something new to try out. How NightClan should respond? Maybe they could think, 'if we can't bring our numbers up with NightClan cats, we could try the other clans.' I know we sort of tossed aside the idea of rape, so what I am proposing is not exactly like that. They could be thinking of having one clan sort of be a clan for them to breed with, their 'breeding clan', CHOOSING to breed with them because of love. Scarletstar would choose DawnClan because, usually, they are more healthy than the other clans and therefore, more fertile. I don't know if Scarletstar or Lightningstar would agree to this, so it might be difficult. Lightningstar could agree with Scarletstar, if Lightningstar was generous, to bend the rules a bit and intentionally have their cats fall in love together. The reason Lighingstar would agree? One, if she is the compassionate type, it would just be the right thing to do. Two, if she is a more strategic leader, DawnClan is already low on numbers and would need the extra cats. They would split the kits between them, so both clans would benefit. Pretty much, some of the fertile NightClanners would be sent to live with DawnClan for a bit, until they fall in love and have kits together. Knowing this, some of the DawnClanners might not agree to this, which is why they wouldn't know. Lightningstar would tell them they were staying to help the NightClanners get their strength up, making up a story about them having an outburst of illness or whatever. The story doesn't really matter, but it would be hard to hide this from the other clans, so they could have some of the sterile cats be 'mates' with the mother or father. They would pretend to be the other parent, so they still get the chance to have the experience of being a parent. I think more people would be willing to give up some of their NightClanners for neutering or spaying then. Now, let's say Lightningstar would not agree to this. Scarletstar might decide to try to make it happen anyway, sending frequent patrols of the fertile cats to the DawnClan border. They would not go her the border unless invited, so the most Lightningstar could do is grow suspicious and send more patrols to that border, thus making their chances more successful. The NightClanners would try to be particularly more friendly than usual, and the DawnClanners might be intrigued by this and try to figure out why. By the time they discover the real reason, they would have fallen in love with the NightClanner and decide to try to make it work. If neither leader would agree to this, I guess a NightClan leader could arise and put the patrolling idea in some of the fertile cats' heads? How Scarletstar would not notice this, I don't know, but how come no one noticed Weepingstar's evil? ( I know he wasn't evil, but I can't think of another word to summarize it. ) Cats had their suspicions, of course, but that was all it was. Suspicions. Scarletstar would be suspicious and try to figure out why, and she will eventually, but it would have to be after a few litters were born. I don't think she would be cruel enough to kill the kits or abandon them, or humble enough to give them to DawnClan, but I don't know either leader, so.. All in all, it all depends on what the leader thinks.
That seems very far fetched considering the Nationalist leanings of Dawnclan, breeding with Nightclanners doesn't fit in well with that specific agenda.
This is going to sound very rude, so I apologize, but do you have an idea?
Dawnclan and Nightclans relationship to me extends to Dawnclan taking back their lost territory, perhaps Nightclan could alleviate this by offering prey in order to keep an alliance going strong. I don't find the kidnapping/spayed and neutered idea very well because for a cat it's easy to escape situations like that. What you have presented would completely be against Dawnclans ideas, they have already come to an understanding that cats who aren't full Dawnclan or Dawnclan born are damaging to the culture and way of things. If Nightclan suffers population decline then the idea I presented in the last Plot Planning, which consolidates to Nightclan expanding further into the city. Why this seems reasonable. One, with extra territory Nightclan accumulates more prey which can help with Dawnclans famine. Two, as they expand they can kidnap loners/rogues/gang cats/kittypets etc. to force a population growth (although such an idea still rubs me the wrong way because of how many things could go wrong) in the ranks. Three, as they show their dominance in the region they could integrate non-clan cats to join, for safety, food, glory what have you, to help stall the problems they may face. That's my suggestion Avery, and no need to apologize, as it is plot planning and such is the case.
I think with the NightClan thing, the pros are:
If there is a male leader, it could come about because (using Ricochet as an example) he wants to run the clan like a wolf pack where the alpha male and female are the only ones permitted to breed. Or, if the female is leader, it could happen because she has a close call with a tom, and is afraid, or because she wants the clan to be strengthened without risk of she-cats dying in childbirth. It would definitely be interesting.
The cons are: this would really rely on players wanting their characters to be neutered; even in Sunkenstar's reign when she forbade mates from having kits, many characters still had kits. Also, since cats don't have access to anesthetics, neutering is more likely to be fatal, as the intense pain would cause shock, and blood loss alone would be deadly.
I think if we want to start conflict between Icestar and Jaguargaze, we could actually use his sister Brindlesplash and the previous deputy Horus to an advantage. Horus and Standingbear in SunClan both are in love with Brindlesplash, and Silver, Mockingdeath and I have all agreed that Brindle will have a litter sired by both toms. With that, there could be conflict between Horus, Standing, and Brindle, and perhaps could result in Icestar and Jaguar taking opposing sides (e.g. Icestar takes a side against Brindle for causing such a conflict, and therefore making Horus lose face, whom she may still be friendly toward, and Jaguar takes his sister's side, arguing that she wouldn't do this on purpose, and that perhaps she was taken advantage of; the clan could divide between the leader and deputy (although, it kind of sound Trump-Clinton-y XD))
If there is a male leader, it could come about because (using Ricochet as an example) he wants to run the clan like a wolf pack where the alpha male and female are the only ones permitted to breed. Or, if the female is leader, it could happen because she has a close call with a tom, and is afraid, or because she wants the clan to be strengthened without risk of she-cats dying in childbirth. It would definitely be interesting.
The cons are: this would really rely on players wanting their characters to be neutered; even in Sunkenstar's reign when she forbade mates from having kits, many characters still had kits. Also, since cats don't have access to anesthetics, neutering is more likely to be fatal, as the intense pain would cause shock, and blood loss alone would be deadly.
I think if we want to start conflict between Icestar and Jaguargaze, we could actually use his sister Brindlesplash and the previous deputy Horus to an advantage. Horus and Standingbear in SunClan both are in love with Brindlesplash, and Silver, Mockingdeath and I have all agreed that Brindle will have a litter sired by both toms. With that, there could be conflict between Horus, Standing, and Brindle, and perhaps could result in Icestar and Jaguar taking opposing sides (e.g. Icestar takes a side against Brindle for causing such a conflict, and therefore making Horus lose face, whom she may still be friendly toward, and Jaguar takes his sister's side, arguing that she wouldn't do this on purpose, and that perhaps she was taken advantage of; the clan could divide between the leader and deputy (although, it kind of sound Trump-Clinton-y XD))
(In response to Henry on the last Plot Planning Page) The clans would be more alert, but individuals can still do stupid things and might not be stopped by their clanmates.
The fact that they?re doing it primarily for repopulation doesn?t clash with the potential secondary goal of also weakening their enemies. Other clans could refuse to kidnap she-cats on moral grounds and even if they did look at NightClan?s actions as inspiration, that could just be a starting place for further plotting.
DawnClan at this point would still be struggling to feed themselves despite the gains in their territory and scavenging in NightClan (which they aren?t trained in, so maybe we could have some DawnClanners get sick off of scavenged food they shouldn?t have eaten?). Leaf-bare has never affected the ongoing wars in the past, if anything it?s made them more severe as cats fight over increasingly scarce resources.
Exactly, they would demand compensation and hold Scarletstar responsible? which is more opportunity for conflict down the line. Sorry if I?ve missed something, but I don?t see how this goes against my point of using a warrior acting against Scarletstar?s orders to cause more trouble?
Avery, I?m not totally convinced that DawnClan and NightClan would start interbreeding intentionally for political reasons, but I do like the idea of NightClanners and DawnClanners coming mates and having to decide what to do with the resulting kits. While the norm in past situations has been that the kits stay with their mother, NightClanners could threaten that norm by suggesting that the kits either choose to stay with one clan or the other, or demand that kits be split evenly between the parents. We could even make the situation more extreme by having NightClanners outright demand to keep the litters, because the neutered population is anticipated to have fewer NightClan kits. Therefore, their reasoning will be that if DawnClan wants to keep having an ally, they need to give NightClan their queens? kits.
Their nationalist leanings have subsided in the last month or so, but I agree that it?s still a big enough leaning that the NightClan-DawnClan pairings would few and far between, and looked down upon.
Hm, it seems like we?re planning a lot of things that would tear NightClan and DawnClan apart?how are we going to keep them together, especially since SunClan and MoonClan also have a shaky alliance. Should we break the alliances apart after only a battle or two?
King, I don?t think that even the majority of NightClan would have to be neutered, just enough to cause some real anxiety for the clan. Maybe even just 20 would be enough and I can toss all my NightClanners into the mix.
How would the rest of the clan react to Jaguargaze and Icestar getting involved in what might end up being perceived as a fairly petty conflict? If anything, I think we should change the approach to how they approach the situation. Jaguarstar is staunchly for the clan above the individual and thus won?t want to seem partial or overly involved with his kin, so could dismiss the whole situation as merely petty squabbling. He could actually praise the idea of a she-cat having one litter by multiple toms from the perspective that more closely brings the clan together and doesn?t cause a she-cat to be overly loyal to one mate at the expense of the clan as a whole. Icestar could then talk about how the relationship between a kit and their parents is the foundation of the clan, or possibly tackle the situation from an entirely different angle?I?m a little more iffy as to how she could respond. Silver and Shade, please speak up if I?m misinterpreting your characters, that?s just my guess at a possible way we could carry that conflict and I?m not trying to put words into your mouths.
The fact that they?re doing it primarily for repopulation doesn?t clash with the potential secondary goal of also weakening their enemies. Other clans could refuse to kidnap she-cats on moral grounds and even if they did look at NightClan?s actions as inspiration, that could just be a starting place for further plotting.
DawnClan at this point would still be struggling to feed themselves despite the gains in their territory and scavenging in NightClan (which they aren?t trained in, so maybe we could have some DawnClanners get sick off of scavenged food they shouldn?t have eaten?). Leaf-bare has never affected the ongoing wars in the past, if anything it?s made them more severe as cats fight over increasingly scarce resources.
Exactly, they would demand compensation and hold Scarletstar responsible? which is more opportunity for conflict down the line. Sorry if I?ve missed something, but I don?t see how this goes against my point of using a warrior acting against Scarletstar?s orders to cause more trouble?
Avery, I?m not totally convinced that DawnClan and NightClan would start interbreeding intentionally for political reasons, but I do like the idea of NightClanners and DawnClanners coming mates and having to decide what to do with the resulting kits. While the norm in past situations has been that the kits stay with their mother, NightClanners could threaten that norm by suggesting that the kits either choose to stay with one clan or the other, or demand that kits be split evenly between the parents. We could even make the situation more extreme by having NightClanners outright demand to keep the litters, because the neutered population is anticipated to have fewer NightClan kits. Therefore, their reasoning will be that if DawnClan wants to keep having an ally, they need to give NightClan their queens? kits.
Their nationalist leanings have subsided in the last month or so, but I agree that it?s still a big enough leaning that the NightClan-DawnClan pairings would few and far between, and looked down upon.
Hm, it seems like we?re planning a lot of things that would tear NightClan and DawnClan apart?how are we going to keep them together, especially since SunClan and MoonClan also have a shaky alliance. Should we break the alliances apart after only a battle or two?
King, I don?t think that even the majority of NightClan would have to be neutered, just enough to cause some real anxiety for the clan. Maybe even just 20 would be enough and I can toss all my NightClanners into the mix.
How would the rest of the clan react to Jaguargaze and Icestar getting involved in what might end up being perceived as a fairly petty conflict? If anything, I think we should change the approach to how they approach the situation. Jaguarstar is staunchly for the clan above the individual and thus won?t want to seem partial or overly involved with his kin, so could dismiss the whole situation as merely petty squabbling. He could actually praise the idea of a she-cat having one litter by multiple toms from the perspective that more closely brings the clan together and doesn?t cause a she-cat to be overly loyal to one mate at the expense of the clan as a whole. Icestar could then talk about how the relationship between a kit and their parents is the foundation of the clan, or possibly tackle the situation from an entirely different angle?I?m a little more iffy as to how she could respond. Silver and Shade, please speak up if I?m misinterpreting your characters, that?s just my guess at a possible way we could carry that conflict and I?m not trying to put words into your mouths.
Do we still need some Nightclanners to be fixed? If so I could offer up Starch.
And about the Sunclan plot, maybe there could be a bit more conflict if there were cats who were unable to choose a side. Maybe some of the other cats who had already chosen sides would begin to pressure, bribe, or even threaten them into choosing a side?
And about the Sunclan plot, maybe there could be a bit more conflict if there were cats who were unable to choose a side. Maybe some of the other cats who had already chosen sides would begin to pressure, bribe, or even threaten them into choosing a side?
I like how the plan was set up, seems interesting and new....
As for a comment made about the neutering being fatal, I might have missed something somewhere but my original suggestion for spaying/neutering is that Cat's Anonymous would do it. Or any type of related group. It's rather typical of them to take cat colonies or just random stray cats, fix them, and then return them to their colonies.
I don't see a scenario where Lightningstar would okay cross clan breeding between NightClan and DawnClan, even if she knew part of their population was sterile. She'd actually be more likely to refuse if she knew they were desperate to increase their population.
I don't see a scenario where Lightningstar would okay cross clan breeding between NightClan and DawnClan, even if she knew part of their population was sterile. She'd actually be more likely to refuse if she knew they were desperate to increase their population.
I don't have the time to read those paragraphs at the moment, but Scarletstars first reaction would be to pressure the non-neutered cats into mating, most likely threatening them if they don't.
I personally really like the idea of NightClan cats being neutered or sprayed. I think the idea that Avery came up with was interesting, and it would be exciting to see it play out.
A bit of an off direct topic question, why is MoonClanning refusing to return territory to DawnClan?
A bit of an off direct topic question, why is MoonClanning refusing to return territory to DawnClan?
Acorn says...
Do we still need some Nightclanners to be fixed? If so I could offer up Starch.
And about the Sunclan plot, maybe there could be a bit more conflict if there were cats who were unable to choose a side. Maybe some of the other cats who had already chosen sides would begin to pressure, bribe, or even threaten them into choosing a side?
Ah, that does make sense.
And yeah, I see what your saying with Jaguar.
@Henry MacArthur you're probably right, but haven't Dawn-Night relationships happened anyways? No matter what we do, something will stretch the realism a bit, so I think my idea shouldn't completely be thrown out. | @Ember perhaps something else could push them to have mates? I'm not sure what, but obviously something about my idea could be tweaked. | @Lightning alright, if we do go through with my plan then Lightningstar wouldn't be aware ( how, I don't know, I'm out of ideas ).
This might've been mentioned somewhere, but (backtracking a bit here) what of MoonClan's NightClan spies? Were they called back? I still have Ivyfrost, but I'm not sure if she's still spying or if she's back in MoonClan...
i dunno i REALLY like this plot, it may be a bit messed up (coming from me), but i dont think we should change too much of this plot line. I dont think i've ever seen a plot line that caught my attention like this one
{Victuri Trash} Shiryuu says...
i dunno i REALLY like this plot, it may be a bit messed up (coming from me), but i dont think we should change too much of this plot line. I dont think i've ever seen a plot line that caught my attention like this one
Sorry, which plot line are you referring to?
Acorn says...
And about the Sunclan plot, maybe there could be a bit more conflict if there were cats who were unable to choose a side. Maybe some of the other cats who had already chosen sides would begin to pressure, bribe, or even threaten them into choosing a side?
That could be cool, especially if cats are pulled different directions by various kin and close friends.
Lochflame says...
I don't have the time to read those paragraphs at the moment, but Scarletstars first reaction would be to pressure the non-neutered cats into mating, most likely threatening them if they don't.
We could have that happen as well, keeping the systematic impregnation within the clan either at first, or just keep it within the clan for the entirety of the plot. The problem I?m seeing there is if it chases away more members than it eventually produces, which would be counterproductive.
Averyiator says...
@Ember perhaps something else could push them to have mates? I'm not sure what, but obviously something about my idea could be tweaked. | @Lightning alright, if we do go through with my plan then Lightningstar wouldn't be aware ( how, I don't know, I'm out of ideas ).
I still think it?s best if the cross-breeding happens naturally without any intentional interference from the leaders, unless maybe if Scarletstar encouraged some NightClan toms to take DawnClan mates. She?d have to keep it on the down-low, though, or risk further threatening an already strained relationship with Lightningstar.
Tiny says...
A bit of an off direct topic question, why is MoonClanning refusing to return territory to DawnClan?
This certainly isn?t an in character reason, but out of character it?s just that if we remove that piece from the puzzle the rest of it falls apart. From an in-character perspective, well, MoonClan has always been prideful and must enjoy the new territory enough to think it?s worth maintaining.
Shadecloud says...
This might've been mentioned somewhere, but (backtracking a bit here) what of MoonClan's NightClan spies? Were they called back? I still have Ivyfrost, but I'm not sure if she's still spying or if she's back in MoonClan...
On the history page I mentioned that a MoonClan spy would be the one to tip of MoonClan to NightClan?s kidnapping of kittypet and loner she-cats, so you should keep your spy there at least for now.
Ah Sorry i wasnt clear, but the original one. I hate to say it but I'm sure even nightclan, wouldn't want to take a risk and use Dawnclan as a breeding choice and ruin what alliance they have or could have. and with the orginal idea of using Moonclan or Sunclan it will keep their alliance more together since it will be more under Dawnclan's radar. Also since the spies are there, it'll be more interesting since the spies would be able to recognize their clanmates faster than Dawnclan if moonclan and Sunclan she's are taken.
Why would kidnapping she-cats in the clans be in anyway better over city cats? Despite what you say it does clash Ember because it endangers Nightclanners more and could easily reduce stability. Moonclan/Sunclan could easily form a raid and bust any potential victims out.
The system is bottom up, if the base is too weak it's because the top is too heavy. Scarletstar is very susceptible to criticism and compensation based on one Warrior. And I never said that Dawnclan would scavenge the cities themselves I mentioned how Nightclanners could provide it to keep an alliance, thus the food is for the most part safe because of Nightclans familiarity.
The system is bottom up, if the base is too weak it's because the top is too heavy. Scarletstar is very susceptible to criticism and compensation based on one Warrior. And I never said that Dawnclan would scavenge the cities themselves I mentioned how Nightclanners could provide it to keep an alliance, thus the food is for the most part safe because of Nightclans familiarity.
I?m not disagreeing that it clashes, I?m saying that the NightClanners who will kidnap she-cats from the clans aren?t going to think ahead of the immediate moment of ?oh, hey, new she cat! We?ve been looking for those lately.? My character Dogface, as I stated, would definitely do something like that without considering the consequences. Therefore, the clan kidnappings are still possible despite not being strategic.
Ah, alright. I assumed that we were still going with the open borders, not that NightClan would be directly giving DawnClanners food. Thanks for clearing that up!
Ah, alright. I assumed that we were still going with the open borders, not that NightClan would be directly giving DawnClanners food. Thanks for clearing that up!
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